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Jun 4, 2026
Jinal Shah crushes on Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad
Jinal Shah crushes on Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad
00:00
24:20
Transcript
0:00
I would love for the audiences to discover that story on their own. I think that they're both so formidable in their own rights.
0:09
[instrumental music] Hi, and welcome to Creative Crush, a podcast in which CMOs step from behind the brand and talk about the creative work that they keep returning to.
0:25
And today I'm very excited to be talking to Janelle Shaw. Janelle, can you tell us who you are and what it is that you do? I'm Janelle Shaw. I am the Chief Customer and Marketing Officer at Zip.
0:38
I am mother to a young four-year-old. I'm a sister, I'm a wife. Um, and, uh, um, yeah, what I do is balance the multitudes of my responsibilities and my, my identities in a day. Can you tell us a little bit about Zip?
0:54
Yeah. Zip is a digital financial services organization. We're one of the fastest growing buy now pay laters in the US. Um,
1:04
and, you know, I've been with Zip for about five years now, and had the pleasure of helping see the periods of intense hyper growth and transformation of the organization.
1:15
Well, uh, as I said earlier, this is an opportunity for CMOs to talk about the creative work that they just keep coming back to, they fall in love with.
1:27
Uh, do you wanna tell us who we're gonna be talking about today, or what we're going, going to be talking about today? Yeah. I... You know, what inspires me is, are things that are adjacent and oblique to our industry.
1:39
Um, things that really get me as a human inspired and, um, thinking differently.
1:45
So when you asked me the question of who my creative crush is, two names came to my mind immediately, and they happen to be married to each other, so Jon Batiste and Suleika Jaouad.
1:55
One's a writer, the other's a musician, and I've been following them and their art and their careers for years. My first day of chemo, his 11 Grammy nominations were announced.
2:07
[crowd cheering] I won the biggest prize in music, come home, she's back in the hospital. This is what we're dealing with. Both of them are absolutely incredible and, and as a couple, they're just...
2:21
Their story is something else, for anyone who doesn't know. Before we jump into that, I just wanna take you right the way back to the beginning. Can you remember the very first time either of them came to your attention?
2:34
Yes. I, I remember the very first time individually each of them came to my attention, and then how I, you know, followed the journey.
2:43
I think Jon Batiste, um, he was in my awareness because he was one of the musicians on, I believe it was The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. But I think what put him firmly in my radar was the movie Soul,
2:58
and he was the... He co-created and co-composed the music, um, in that movie, and something about that just spoke to me and I went down a rabbit hole reading everything I can find on him, his old videos, his story.
3:14
And, and Suleika, I, I can't actually even put my finger on it. I love her writing. She has a newsletter called The Isolation Journals, and I've been a subscriber for years.
3:26
She came in my orbit through her newsletter and, and that's sort of how I discovered them and discovered their relationship and,
3:33
uh, just the wonderful, um, communion that they share, and their art shares with each other. I think it's really interesting. And, and I love, uh, hearing people's experience of discovery.
3:44
They discover someone, there's something that captures their attention, and then there's, you know, there's something else that makes them go down that rabbit hole.
3:52
So I love that there was a very specific point where you'd seen this film and you're like, "Okay, I'm definitely going, going in deeper here," or, "I'm definitely subscribing to this newsletter now."
4:01
I love to know what that tipping point. And there was a really, um, when, um, Jon Batiste won his Grammy
4:10
for the Best Album, 'cause he won a lot of Grammys, um, but for Best Album, he did this incredible speech and I, I, I've written it down as a quote because it's everything that this podcast is about to me.
4:20
He says, "So you won Best, Best Album." And he says, "There is no best musician. There is no best album. There is no best whatever.
4:28
Uh, the creative act's a sub- creative act is subjective, and they can reach people at a point in their lives when they need it most. It's like they have a radar."
4:39
And that, that's just, like, such a wonderful quote and wonderful thing that I'm gonna keep in mind a lot because it is like, you know, creative people or creative pieces of work are like a radar.
4:51
It doesn't appeal to everyone, but c- can you think, is there anything that- Yeah... is there any reason why you needed both of these people in your life when you discovered them?
5:00
You know, I think, I think that's exactly right about Jon. He, his,
5:06
his approach to his art is extremely democratic and he, he's always maintained a part of his philosophy, um, is he talks about music as a birthright, something that belongs to everyone.
5:21
And it's not elite, it's something you participate in, it's something you make your own. And, you know, he is, he's classically trained.
5:29
He's trai- you know, he studied at Julliard, and yet, like, he's not afraid of taking a classical piece of music and making it s- making it his own.
5:39
Um, he's not afraid of, um, building on it and growing, you know, with it and blending it and mixing it. And I think his irreverence is...
5:52
His, his, he, his respect for the classics and then sort of this irreverence of playfulness almost, like, "I love music so much, I'm going to see where this goes," that speaks, um, volumes to me.
6:07
Um, espec- especially because, um-You know, I'm not, I'm not, um, I'm not s- words are my, um, choice of art, right? I, if, if I wasn't what, if I wasn't doing what I do, I would be some sort of a writer.
6:22
And so music is not something I, I y- you know, it's not, it's not my love language. And
6:30
what I love about Jon, and I think it's also in his body language when he's playing the piano or even when he was on the late night show, he is in communion with himself.
6:41
Like, he is, when he's performing, when he's playing his music, he's doing it for himself. He's not doing it for a performance. He, his eyes are closed.
6:51
His, his, like, whole body is in a state of rapture, in a state of flow.
6:55
And actually, if you see the movie Soul, the, even though it's an animated film, there are those moments where you see that character being in flow, like eyes closed and shoulders loose.
7:06
And, and I think that to me is why I resonate so much with not just Jon's music, just all of him. And his whole life is art. Like, you know, he, he... it's not, it's not a separation. Um,
7:22
even just, you know, I don't know if you, if you see his, uh, you've seen his documentary and, you know, he was just on the Michelle Obama podcast, and he's just, he's, like,
7:31
vibrating in his own universe, you know, at his own frequency, and sort of like everything is, is just, everything is musical.
7:39
And he, you know, I, I s- follow them on Instagram, and they're road tripping, and he's singing, and I, I love that.
7:48
I love that about him, and he genuinely lives the music as a birthright philosophy, and that speaks to me. I think that to me is, you know, I always have believed everyone is creative.
8:00
I think that because I grew up in the advertising industry and I, um, I had both a creative one, I don't think that that should be a separation, but because we in business separate a creative mind and a commercial mind.
8:13
Um, I fell on sort of that strategy account management path, and it always rankled me that there were titles, um, that had creative in it and ones that didn't.
8:27
It, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more about him definitely being on his own frequency that, you know, lives to his philosophy of music being a birthright.
8:40
He, he is in this constant state physically, emotionally. You can just sense the flow literally flowing through him for, uh, for want of a better phrase.
8:53
And that there's, there's just this gorgeous bit in the documentary, in American Sympathy, where, um, he's sat down and he's playing. I can't remember who it was.
9:04
I can't remember who sat next to him, piano teacher or, um, and he's playing, and he grabs his arm and says, "Breathe." And he stops for a minute and breathes. "Now breathe again."
9:17
And then a little bit later on you see him with the orchestra and he's talking to them about breathing and, you know, so the breath is his oneness with his music, and it is all part of how you get into flow, and you get a sense from the pair of them- Yeah...
9:31
that they're both totally in flow. Uh, without wanting to spoil the conversation further, there's a moment where,
9:39
where Suleika talks about making a shift to having to paint because she can't write and can't speak and things like that. We have these two incredible pe- incredible people who are telling quite a complex story.
9:54
Do you wanna tell the audience a little bit more about their story as a couple? I would love for the audiences to discover that story on their own.
10:03
I think that they're both so formidable in their own right, and then you see them, it's almost like there's three, you know, artists, right? There is Suleika, there's Jon, and then there's the two of them together. Um,
10:17
uh, I, maybe what I will share is they, they met young and then they reconnected, um, as adults.
10:24
And, uh, I think what they've been through and the success that they've had on the other side of it is remarkable, is it takes, um, you know, as an observer and as someone who prays that,
10:42
one, like, I never have to go through that, or, you know, people I love never have to go through that. But it just speaks volumes to the connection that they must have with their own
10:53
inner selves first and foremost, right? Your relationship with yourself has to be so strong that it can sustain what the unit of them is going to navigate and go through.
11:04
There's just something quite incredible about their story, how, uh, it's s- they're kind of living these two existences at once.
11:13
One existence which, uh, is incredibly sad, and another existence where he's finding out he's been nominated for 11 Grammys the day he, their family had just received incredibly sad news, and that is the life that they're constantly living.
11:30
How do you balance, how do you live with that duality? How do you, how do you, how do you use it in ways that, you know, helps you keep doing what you do to the level and that you do?
11:43
Um, and there's another quote that, that Suleika said. I, I think she said, "The creative act is an act of survival." And I just think that that's a really beautifully- Yeah... quote. You know, yeah.
11:57
I, I, I think, uh, you know, for your audiences, just so they have some context, um, the way Suleika shot to literary fame, I guess, is, um,
12:08
you know, her, it's her book, Beyond Two Kingdoms, and she penned it as a young 20-year-old who was battling cancer, leukemia. Um, and, and-You know, literally there was a before and after, um, in her life at that point.
12:23
I think for me, what, what is, what really stands out is for both of them, the capacity to create when your life is hanging in that balance, right?
12:37
And I think that is what is actually so, um, unbelievable and almost unbearable about each of them and their story together. I think, you know, it takes a, it takes
12:52
special kind of fortitude to be so in touch with yourself that you, you're al- you're driven, like, like you said, it's a survival, right? You're driven to create because that is the only way through it.
13:04
Um, and that's where when Suleika, in her words, she found art. And then when she, you know, when that ran out, she found words from other people, which I think is so beautiful.
13:14
Her, her, her new book, which I devoured, and I... That is my sort of go-to present to anyone who I think will appreciate or needs a nudge to start journaling. Her new book is called The Book of Alchemy, and
13:27
it is, it is short essays from artists and creators and musicians and, you know, people she admires and people who are her friends. It's short essays on journaling, and it is... You know, to me, that's also, like,
13:46
her writing is not just about her voice. Like, it, it, she brings in this pastiche of other voices to prompt her leaders, prompt her readers to see the world differently.
14:01
We talked a little bit earlier about the challenge of, of, um, living this duality of creating against a backdrop of challenge. Have you,
14:14
uh, do you find yourself using challenge to, to help you in a creative sphere at work in any way? I think John gave me words to articulate this, right? Like, he,
14:27
in his, uh, in one of his interviews, a recent one, both of them, I think it was with Michelle Obama, they talk about, they talk about caregiving. And he,
14:39
in addition to being a spouse for majority of their relationship, he's also been a caregiver, her caregiver, as she battled through, I think, multiple bouts of cancer. And he talks about how essential,
14:56
you know, it was to make sure that his cup was full if he was going to be caring for, um, her.
15:02
And he, he specifically talks about the importance of him continuing to do the work on his inner life and his, um, creative and personal wellbeing, because if your cup is not full, how are you going to navigate any challenge, just leave alone,
15:19
you know, a, a hard, a, a life-and-death challenge? And I, I, I think that that's the crux of it, right? Like, whatever challenge, whether it's at work, whether it's in life, like,
15:31
it's so important that your cup is continuously full creatively and, um, physically, right? Like, your, the movement that needs somatic, right? Like, that's what they call this.
15:42
The, the, your body just knowing and building that muscle memory of how to move through challenge, I think that is actually equally important.
15:49
So to me, you know, there's rituals that I have that are absolutely, like, sacred to me, that help me harness these challenges in a way that I just double down and dig deeper in my inner life. And my inner life,
16:07
the richness of it comes from what I expose it to continuously, the reading, the art, the stories, you know? So, so it is a, it is a very, it, it is a very two-way relationship. It...
16:22
Is there any of those rituals that you can talk about? Are you prepared to talk about or anything? I'm fascinated by- Yeah. I, yes, yes. My number one, and look, as a, as a, um, I, I'm, uh, very realistic as well about,
16:37
you know, how many, you know, rituals, and I always am amazed when you see those, like, executive, uh, a day in the life.
16:44
And I was like, "How are all of you waking up at 5:00 every day and hitting the gym at 6:00, and there's no room for, like, the messiness of life in between?" Which is amazing if that is indeed true. That is not my life.
16:56
My life is very much, "Ugh, gosh, like, I had a late night last night working on something, so my morning's going to be at a different, you know, rhythm," or, "My four-year-old has decided to, um,
17:11
wake up wanting lollipop for breakfast." And, you know, it is, it is, like, the, the, the modalities are so different for me.
17:19
My, my sacred ritual is, um, every Monday morning, rain or shine, without a doubt, like, I, um, start my week journaling. And, you know, I have a beautiful coffee shop close to where I live.
17:35
It's actually a coffee shop and a florist, because I realize that there's something about the combination of the two, just be- you know, the ambient sound of watching a florist, like, at her, at her art, right?
17:49
Like, she's pruning the flowers. She's sprinkling water. She's tending to them. And the ambient sounds of, like, the barista, like, doing what he does, and, you know, there is just something so ordinary and so beautiful
18:05
in that setting, um, that for me, that is my absolute, like, cannot mess with that, my one hour. That's how I start the week.
18:14
I do continue journaling throughout the week, but to me, that, that sacred space and the time and the repetition of it is just-Unbelievably important. And then there's other small things, right?
18:28
Like, I have a standing coffee date with a friend once a month. I have a, you know, these other things that sort of bring you, um... It's almost like a connected story, where you pick up from where you leave behind.
18:39
And I think those, those connective, um, chapters are equally important, because you see how you're growing through someone else's eyes, and they get to see how they are growing through your eyes. So I think, I think...
18:53
And same thing with journaling. I- it just, the, the art of, like, physically writing down, it just helps you process and integrate what you've learned a lot faster. Can I ask you to imagine a situation?
19:10
Um, you're in your coffee shop, and someone sits next to you, and they talk to you, and you might not want to talk to you because you might be in flow or whatever. And they ask you, "What are you reading?"
19:21
And you might be reading, um, or you might be listening to, to John's music or reading a book or something. And you have to sell the pair of them to this person, or either of them. You have to...
19:37
You know, we've talked for half an hour, and we've really noodled, but you've literally got a couple of seconds. How are you talking about these two to sell them?
19:45
What is the, the line or two that you're gonna use to, to make that person go away and buy the album or stream it or buy the book or whatever? I, I mean, do you, would you really do that to a stranger?
19:58
Let me ask you that. Do you know what? I, I would, simply because, um, I always, I always ca- I tend to caveat things with, with, "I'm a little bit weird, so you might not like this." But
20:14
if you do, you are gonna hear some of the most incredible... My favorite band is a band called Prefab Sprout. They're an '80s really idiosyncratic band.
20:24
Not a lot of people like them, and I don't expect people to like them.
20:27
But what I generally tend to say to people is that, "If these do catch a hook in you, you're gonna find one of the most unusual but brilliant songwriters that you never knew existed."
20:39
Because I just want people to, to- Yeah... love people that I like. But I know it's a really hard sell sometimes. Yeah. No, th- this is a really good question, because, you know, you got me thinking. I would...
20:53
I, I have no qualms in sharing with someone what I'm reading, and if they ask why, why I'm reading it. But, you know, I have come to believe this, that things have to find you when you're ready for them. You know?
21:07
It's, it's just a, it, it just is the universal truth.
21:11
Even with advice or there's things that, you know, my exec coach may say to me now, and that's happened, where I've had exec coaches say the same thing the same way in the past.
21:24
But there's something about the right alchemy of my mind being open a certain way now, my aperture being broadened a certain way, and what I need in my life right now, that it just works.
21:37
So I find that thing with recommendations too. I've, I, I joke, but, you know, I have this essay that I'm trying to write, which is, my, my daughter has, she's going through the phase where she knows everything, right?
21:49
She's like, "I already know that." Uh, you know, I, I... So like, "How do you know that?" She's like, she's like, "Well, you just told me, so I already know it."
21:56
But there's this, like, unbelievable confidence in how she knows everything. And I feel that the older I get, I don't know anything.
22:04
[laughs] And, you know, and it, it's a remarkable contrast to my 20s, where I think I did channel a bit of my daughter's, you know, "I know everything."
22:14
So I think for me, maybe how I'd approach that conversation, going back to your coffee shop, is I might wanna know, "I know why I'm here, like, first thing in the morning when not many people are here.
22:24
What brings you here?" [laughs] And if I find something that I think might resonate with me with them at where they are, I think then I might made a hard, make a hard sell. Because then it wouldn't be a hard sell.
22:35
Then it would be like, "Listen, like, if you're here for the same reasons that I'm here, like, here's what you need to, like, check out. And let me give you a gift subscription to the, you know, Isolation Journals."
22:45
I, um, you know, I've been telling people for my entire life that I don't know why, I'm just not a fan of The Beatles. Uh, neither John Lennon or Paul McCartney's solo work until about two years ago.
23:00
And Paul, Paul McCartney's solo work has been kicking my door in for my entire life. And all of a sudden, that radar, that thing, it found me.
23:10
And I don't quite know why it found me, but I am just like the biggest Paul McCartney fan now. It found me despite always being there, always... It's not like Paul McCartney's been hiding, is it? You know, so...
23:24
You tuned into his frequency. There's something that happened. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I've had those moments with...
23:31
I remember in my, when, when the phenomenal book, God of Small Things first came out, by Arundhati Roy, I remember attempting four times to read it, and I just couldn't get past the first five pages.
23:45
And, you know, I re- just, like, randomly, I, you know, I found it again, and then I breezed through it in two days. So it, it is a, that's just, I don't...
23:56
I really believe that it, things have to come to you when you're ready to receive them. Otherwise, it's just another Instagram influencer recommendation [laughs] that you can save and go back to and do nothing with.
24:14
[outro music]
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