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Jul 23, 2026
Paul Afshar crushes on Song of Achilles
Paul Afshar crushes on Song of Achilles
00:00
26:28
Transcript
0:00
I would love to understand how she became aware of this character and the characters that she writes about.
0:06
I, I'm assuming she's a student of history, and maybe it kind of comes along with just being a little bit more into the kind of the, the text than, than most people.
0:15
[instrumental music] Hi, my name's Hugh Gary, and this is Creative Crush, a podcast in which marketing's sharpest minds step away from the brand and talk about the piece of culture that they return to again and again.
0:35
It could be a book, it could be an album, could be a film, could be a play, could be anything. Today, we are talking to Paul Afshar from Paybis. Paul, how you doing? I'm really well, Hugh. Better for seeing your...
0:48
you and your fantastic frames. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Um, okay, for anyone who doesn't know you, can you just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Absolutely.
1:00
I would actually describe myself as one of marketing's dullest minds- [laughs]...
1:03
and that's completely intentional in the sense that I, I've tried to immerse myself, uh, as I do with any job, in, you know, how a- an end user or customer might, um, you know, find out about our, our sort of product or, or the industry.
1:18
And in a lot of our cases it's, you know, social media and TikTok in particular.
1:21
So the thing I always say to my team is, um, "Please," you know, "explain things in, in really simple terms," because I spend an hour watching TikToks every day, and I think it sort of really kind of set back my cognitive development by, by several years.
1:34
But, uh, as one of marketing's most blunt minds, uh, and intentionally so, I like to think of myself a little bit like, um,
1:44
a, a kind of a, a- an SAS person, not because I'm, I'm tough, not because I'm, uh, you know, well-trained, but, you know, people like that, um, operate kind of in the sky and on the ground.
1:57
Um, and I, I think when you do a role like this, um, CMO for a kind of big, um, you know, uh, organization, we're about 7 million customers and, you know, ever-growing, you've really gotta think strategically but kind of roll up your sleeves and, and get in the mud, uh, as well.
2:13
A- and, you know, that's not for everyone. So I think of myself as that person who sort of flies in the sky, plays in the mud. Um, I'm a strategic but also an operational kind of marketeer.
2:23
[instrumental music] Today you are, uh, you are going to be talking about a book, and what's great about Creative Crush is, um, we've had a different
2:33
form of culture every time, from a musician, a play, a TV series, a game. You're our first book. So- Yeah... tell us a little bit about your book that you want to share. What is it, and who's it by?
2:49
The book is called A Song of Achilles. [instrumental music] My name is Madeline Miller, and I'm the author of the Song of Achilles.
2:55
Uh, the Song of Achilles is a retelling of the myth of the hero, uh, Achilles as told by Patroclus, his beloved companion. It starts when the two are boys.
3:05
Uh, Patroclus finds his way to Achilles' kingdom because he's exiled from his own kingdom for accidentally killing a boy. The two become friends.
3:13
They grow up together and then as the Trojan War begins, they go to the Trojan War, and the story goes through the, uh, the end of their adventures in the Trojan War.
3:22
[instrumental music] I'll tell you why it's special to me, um, but I know we're gonna get into it as we go along.
3:28
It, it, the writing in the book is some of the most beautiful writing that I have e- ever sort of experienced, so much so that I stole, um, a passage from the book to read as part of my wedding vows when I got married, uh, three years ago in Italy.
3:45
Um, a- and I can't remember the exact line, but it's something like, you know, if, um, i- i- you know, when I die and, you know, if I was blind and, and sort of deaf, um, I would still search amongst you, uh, I would still search for you amongst the infinite stars of the galaxy.
3:59
You know, it's just this sort of wonderful way she's able to kind of use language to paint emotions a- and make you feel the emotions as you're writing.
4:10
But w- what's beautiful about it for me, uh, and I think that sort of genre, and I think perhaps, um, the art of storytelling more broadly, is there are so many stories, um, hidden and untold from the perspectives of the characters in the background or kind of off the page or, or whatever.
4:29
A- and I think that's a really healthy perspective to take professionally and, and just kind of in life more generally.
4:35
But it, it's a wonderful kind of retelling of that classic Greek myth and the story of Achilles and, you know, his sort of, um, fighting prowess, but from the perspective of his often untold lover, Patroclus.
4:51
We're gonna come back to the theme of all these untold stories a little bit later on. But first, can you tell, tell us a little bit about how did you discover the book? Do you know, it...
5:03
the truth is I can't remember, but I don't read a book unless it's been recommended to me.
5:09
So the, the reality is, is it was most likely recommended to me by probably more than one person because it sort of takes a while for someone to, um, recommend, um, before, uh, before it kind of sinks in.
5:20
But from page one, because of the, the sort of premise and because of the writing, I was, I was hooked, and I was gripped, so much so that I've listened to it in multiple media. Um, I've read it.
5:31
I've, um, done an audiobook version of it. Um, I've probably listened to it driving any number of times. It's one of those books that I haven't put down, uh, and I've read it multiple times.
5:42
[instrumental music] Because you talk so s- passionately about loving a story and reading it time and time again, was it one of those stories that you dragged out because you were loving it so much you couldn't bear for it to end, or were you straight in and just needed to get to the end as quickly as possible?
5:59
Oh, that's a great question. Um- A bit of both, which is probably why I've sort of gone back to it so many times.
6:05
But I, I sort of feel it's, um, probably, uh, unhelpful of me to your kind of listeners and viewers not to sort of give a, a little bit more of the story, uh, as part of the answer to that question.
6:17
Uh, and one of the things I love about it is, as I said, it's told from the, the, um, perspective of Patroclus, who i- in the beginning comes across as a, a little bit of a, a victim.
6:26
You know, he's, he's not sort of common born. He's a sort of slightly noble born. Um, but he's not sort of very well favored by his, uh, father, by his own family. Um, he gets sort of sent away.
6:37
And, uh, Achilles on the other hand, is, is all of these things, is, you know, completely favored, seen as brilliant, sort of super strong, um, has demigod-like abilities, et cetera.
6:47
And the sort of the relationship between someone who, if I'm going to sort of draw a different analogy, the kind of, uh, kid at school who is popular, really good at football, and also really good academically.
7:00
I mean, you don't always have the sort of the triple threat, but anyway, let's assume that kid, making friends with the kind of the newbie who was a bit geeky, probably a bit ugly, um, and, you know, just socially anxious.
7:11
And that, the sort of the, the, the, the telling of that initial relationship, I think speaks to, um, a, a dynamic which we're all used to, if not necessarily in adult life, then certainly from our childhoods as well.
7:24
Um, but of course, you know, it's interwoven with all of these much more familiar stories of the, the kind of battle and the Siege of Troy, um, the kind of the, the trail. Um, not a lot of people know that,
7:36
uh, Patroclus was, uh, killed by, um, uh, sort of opposition forces. And one of the most, um, visceral but also beautiful parts of the book is Achilles' grief.
7:49
Um, and he, he sort of, and, and it's a bit sort of brutal, but he, he drags the body of, um, one of his opponents, you know, across, around the sort of the city, uh, as sort of punishment i- in, in anger, in just pure, raw, vivid emotion at the loss of his sort of companion, his best friend, and his, his love.
8:10
Um, and, you know, i- in that respect, going back to your original question, you of course, want to read on more because,
8:17
you know, the, the telling of their relationship and the ending of their relationship and, and actually sort of, there's a beautiful part in the end of, um, Achilles' mother who is this sort of, I don't fair- think it's fair to describe her as a, sort of a beast, but she's kind of like a, a sort of minor goddess that lives in a swamp.
8:33
Um, it's not a swamp, but anyway, um, who does not want him to fall in love and be a companion of a, of a mortal, in this case, Patroclus, actually honors their love, um, in the afterlife when she allows their souls to kind of meet, um, once more and be kind of intertwined.
8:50
So again, it's, it's the sort of, it's the story of human relationships. It's the story of romance. It's the story of loss.
8:57
Um, but I think the thing which, which ge- got me and made me want to both power through and come back to it again and again is, is fundamentally, it's, it's the story of care of, you know, someone who has something and someone who has nothing.
9:11
Um, and the, the sort of the care that exists between both of those people. I've watched some reviews this morning and the reviews of literally people sobbing their eyes out- Mm...
9:21
bawling as they're trying to explain why it matters to them so much. So I sort of wrote my own vows, and this was one part of them, this, this passage. Um, I'll, I'll try and find it in a second and read it to you.
9:34
Um, I just [laughs] completely burst out sobbing, and I think it was a combination of, you know, I was emotional, I was happy, but also the, uh, the passage in particular was just, uh, was just so emotional.
9:45
If you give me a second, um, I'll, I'll find it for you and I'll read it. Uh, give me one sec. You mentioned before that most people know about Achilles, but did you know about Patroclus before? Had you heard
9:57
anything about the story? No. Um, and what's interesting for me is, you know, I, I'm, I'm a, I'm a gay man.
10:06
Uh, I have a husband and the sort of historical, uh, historically interesting about Patroclus is he's underwritten, I think because he was the, the gay lover of, um, this incredibly powerful, both physically, but also in terms of what they meant culturally, um, mythological figure in, in Achilles.
10:28
Um, a- and you, you remember the, the Brad Pitt film, um, where I think Brad Pitt plays Achilles. It, there is no mention of a, a, a male lover, um, which goes completely against the grain of, you know, the, the story.
10:42
So i- it's, uh, the, the sort of undertold story from two perspectives.
10:46
One, because Patroclus was a minor character in this sort of mythos, but also Patroclus has been a character written out of history, sort of crossed out, um, for various reasons.
10:56
And so the kind of reintroduction of him is actually quite a powerful act. So it's, so it's interesting that it took two, 'cause this book came out in 2011? Yes. Something like that.
11:08
You know, it's interesting that stories like that go so untold. They can go for a thousand years untold. Um- 100%...
11:18
it, it, it kind of excites me about what stories might be told in different ways in the future, but at the same time
11:24
disappointing and upsetting that those stories are sat there waiting for, for the right person to find them. And I think this
11:35
history, the famous quote, "History is the story of the victors," which I think is, is completely true, but history is also told from the perspectives of the, usually the man, but not always, but the man or woman at the, the very top.
11:48
It's, it's their achievement, their win, their loss. But, you know, behind them, underneath them, alongside them exist these, um, many, many other characters, minor and major, who we Obviously don't hear about.
12:06
And I just wonder how many Patrocles, and not l- in the literal sense, but, you know, th- those sort of, um, underwritten or forgotten about characters who influenced, shaped, jeered on, picked up, um, are, are there just being completely forgotten by kind of history, um, history right now as well.
12:28
Um, so yeah, I, I think
12:31
there are a lot of those characters, um, and their stories are, are so powerful, and actually we would do well, not just in terms of sort of culture, but as, as professionals to kind of recognize and, and celebrate those things because it is, it's storytelling at its finest, but it also is, is a wonderful kind of glue that helps bind people, teams, communities together.
12:57
My next question was going to be, is there a moment or line that has stuck with you, which kind of cues you up beautifully for your wedding vows? Yes. And I, I, I will try not to, um, sob at this. Feel free. Sob away.
13:12
[laughs] It'll make wonderful, wonderful hearing. Well, can you imagine? You, you'd have a wonderful... Yeah, I, I, I don't do very good when I sob.
13:19
I, I don't think I'll do very good on my wedding day when I sob, but I'll try. "I would recognize you in total darkness were you mute and I deaf.
13:26
I would recognize you in another lifetime entirely, in different bodies, different times, and I would love you in all of this until the very last star in the sky burnt out into oblivion." Beautiful. It's beautiful.
13:40
It's really beautiful. And even sort of saying it again, I kind of felt a little bit of a croak in my, my voice. Yep. It, I, I...
13:48
In and of itself, you know, that, that line, whether it's a- about, you know, the story that we just told, but just the, the writing, the sort of the, the, the kind of unending, undying, um, love that
14:03
just lasts for eternity is, is such a beautiful, you know, powerful concept. And, and actually sort of, you know, s- saying it in my, um, wedding vows wasn't just sort of, you know, trites.
14:17
Uh, uh, at the time, I, uh, and I still do obviously, at the time, I really wanted to say it because that's how I felt. Um, and I suppose that's what, you know, kind of weddings are about in a way, uh, isn't it?
14:27
It's about sort of, you know, confessing and professing your feelings about someone else to your loved ones, your friends, your family.
14:34
And, and it just so perfectly summed up for me both the emotion, the kind of raw emotion in the book, but also how that translates to, I think, how, you know, other people feel about loved ones in their lives as well.
14:48
Yes. I think there's also something about how your wedding vows are about what you need your partner to hear. Mm. You know, what it is that you really, really want them to hear from you, um, what you think they need.
15:04
And, um, had, uh... Did your partner know what you were, what you were going to, to read? [laughs] Yeah. Had they read the book? Had they, were they aware? Yes. Did you talk about it beforehand?
15:16
We, we, we both have read the book, um, separately. We both have re-listened to the audiobook on our mini moon, um, post-wedding- [laughs]... uh, as we were driving around, uh, the lakes in Italy.
15:29
Um, yeah, h- the reason I sort of laughed is, um, I want... I, I'm, I'm a big sort of m- I have many love languages. One of them is, um, gifts and, and kind of acts of kindness.
15:41
And so I'm, I kind of a, a big and small gestures type of guy. Um, but I also like the sort of the, the surprising, um, element.
15:48
So if I've, I've prepared these, these, these vows and you haven't heard them or something equivalent, but he, he, he isn't, um, in terms of, like, liking those surprises. Yeah.
15:57
And so we kind of conferred beforehand, et cetera. But, you know, there was still... I think the kind of the newness of it all, the kind of rawness of it, was doing it kind of in the moment before, you know, 120 people.
16:10
Um, it, it still felt surprising for me and probably surprising for him, the kind of viscerality and the authenticity with which those words kind of bear.
16:22
Because in completely different contexts, the power increases, doesn't it? You know, it's- Mm. I'm assuming it was a sob-a-thon. [laughs] It was.
16:33
And, uh, a friend of mine who's, uh, who was at the wedding, who's now, um, uh, actually in the current government, so you'd think she'd be used to hearing, um, you know, uh, moving words, uh, says she woke up, the next morning she woke up crying.
16:51
As in, like, not she woke up and cried, like she woke up crying because in her sort of like dreamlike state, she was remembering or kind of imagining those words.
17:00
And I think that that was a, that was a really sort of beautiful gift to me, um, as the person whose wedding it was. But I, I think, you know, they, they, they definitely carry, carry power.
17:11
So, um, you said your love lan- language is gifting. Have you gifted the book to anyone? I gifted it to a lot of people on Audible via the kind of the, the sharing link that you can share.
17:22
I think they can listen to a certain proportion of it. But it is my kind of go-to recommendation, you know, when people are sort of saying, "Oh, I'm going on holiday.
17:29
I need some reading recommendations," or, you know, even if they, they're not asking for it. I, I, I'm a real evangelist.
17:36
Um, so much so that, um, I've read all of her, Madeline Miller's books, um, and they're all brilliant. Song of Achilles I think is the, the standout. Is there anything, um, you would ask her if you, if you met her?
17:51
Would you ask her anything about the story or the writing or...? Yeah.
17:55
Uh, in the same way that you asked me about whether I was aware of the character Patrocles, I would love to understand how she became aware of this character and the characters that she writes about.
18:08
I, I'm assuming she's a student of history, and maybe it kind of comes along with just being a little bit more into the kind of, the, the text than, than most people.
18:18
But- I would ask her how she found out, but also why it's important for her to tell their stories. Because I, I-- from me as the kind of the, the passive consumer of her content, of her writing, it, it seems obvious.
18:31
But I, I wonder whether there's something deeper, whether there's something more personal for her.
18:36
You know, does she feel like her story, um, maybe as a child or as a young adult, was untold or crossed out or, or forgotten, and actually this is her medium, this is her kind of life's purpose, to use that personal experience to give voice to those who, at least in fiction, and probably more broadly in real life, don't have it?
19:01
Yeah, there's this idea that kind of really, really brilliant pieces of culture find you at the time you need it to be found. Absolutely. Um, was it...
19:13
And obviously, this might be super personal, you don't have to answer it. But when you discovered it, was, was there something happening in your life at the time that made you need that book? Yes, I think so.
19:29
I, I think there was a confluence of going through a bit of therapy because of, you know, unresolved childhood trauma, going through a very tough period at work.
19:45
I, I sort of work, I have worked for the last sort of nigh on decade, um, for kind of scale-up businesses where, you know, it's, it's high risk, but high reward, and that particular one at the time was, uh, not going well.
19:59
Um, amongst other things, um, you know... Oh, oh, yes, sorry, there was one other thing as well. I had a, a flat that had, um, a, a dangerous flammable cladding on it, uh, and I couldn't shift it.
20:15
I couldn't, um, sort of, you know, rid myself of this one. So it was a real confluence of things, I think, bearing down on me, which are no greater or, or kind of like easier than other people's, you know, burdens.
20:29
But it, it just sort of all happened at the same time, a bit like a, kind of a train careering towards me.
20:35
And I, I think I felt quite, um, powerless, but also a bit hopeless, um, in the sense of, you know, you need something in, in your kind of immediate future, near future and far future, at least I do anyway, to look forward to, to kind of pin your hopes on because it helps.
20:52
You know, it's the tonic for the crap that we deal with on a day-to-day basis. And so I really felt like all of those things were missing because of this confluence of things.
21:00
And so completely by accident, um, although maybe subconscious there was something going on, I kind of started to tune into the recommendations that older female friends, um, were making for me, and picked it up and, and really found sort of solace i- in that book.
21:17
I can't tell you why I felt, found solace. I think perhaps it was just the beauty of the writing, beauty of the storytelling, um, the distraction from the, the kind of every day.
21:27
But I suppose that's the importance of culture, isn't it? So you talked before about your mini moon, uh, driving around Italy, listening to the audiobook, which just sounds absolutely delightful, by the way. Um,
21:41
when you were listening to the audiobook with your husband, did you think about or did you discuss at any point that if a film was ever made of it, who would play the main parts? We did, yes. We absolutely did. Um,
21:59
I, I think there's a tendency with casting to do two things, to cast sort of huge names and to cast, um, very nice-looking people, as in like people that, um, are very sort of, uh, telegenical, ci- cinematographic.
22:15
Um, and I, I wonder whether this needs that, if that makes sense. You know, I, I suppose it depends on the director you give it to.
22:24
I'm thinking-- The reason I'm sort of saying this point is I'm thinking right now we've got this huge movie with Christopher Nolan, The Odyssey, similar sort of, um... Well, it's, it's Greek mythology.
22:36
Um, and you know, the, the casting is huge stars and very good-looking people.
22:40
And I just wonder whether, you know, I'm not saying Ben Whishaw isn't good-looking or a huge star, but whether Patroclus is, is, is someone like Ben Whishaw, given, you know, who he is as a sort of person outside of film and, and the screen.
22:53
But also the type of characters that he plays, maybe a tiny bit awkward, um, definitely not sort of alpha male by any stretch of the imagination. I, I wonder if he'd be, be sort of quite good.
23:07
And if I think about, you know, what the, the character of Achilles partly embodies in, um, in Madeline Miller's work, uh, and to kind of shorthand it, you know, a, a very popular jock at school who turns into a, an absolute hero.
23:24
I, I, I wonder whether you do take someone who is incredibly good-looking and, uh, super popular and, and, and big, maybe a sort of younger Leonardo DiCaprio, to kind of pair those two up.
23:35
Because what a, what an unlikely pairing on the screen, uh, for a love story.
23:39
But actually I wonder, if done in the right way in, in cinema, whether you look beyond kind of what you know about these actors, uh, or what you assume about these actors, to focus on the kind of, the developing and enveloping love story between them.
23:57
So you are, uh, you, you chat to someone in a bar and they never read, and you know they have to read this book. Mm-hmm. How are you convincing them?
24:07
I would start with a quote, um, about, you know, searching for, uh, your life's love in an infinite, you know, starscape over an infinite amount of time. Because I th- I think-
24:22
It, it's, it's so powerful and it's such a, a great hook. But I also think that the, the premise is, is really interesting.
24:29
You know, whether you like Greek mythology or whether you, uh, we even recognize stories that most of us know as Greek mythology, I think the premise of, "Hey, you've heard about this guy, Achilles, so this is a story about
24:44
someone who, well, his lover or someone who was, you know, uh, his confidant," I- is interesting. It is interesting. I, I would love to hear the story of the untold, uncensored story, unredacted story of, I don't know,
25:02
one of Queen Elizabeth or King Charles' I don't know what they call them for kings, but ladies in waiting, or, um, a- Obama's executive assistant. Do you know the- Yeah...
25:13
the, the, kind of, the unfiltered, um, perhaps much less polished perspective that they have without thinking... You know, 'cause we, we know the Obama story from Obama, and that's how he wants to tell his story.
25:27
But actually, the reality is probably a little bit different when observed from people around him. Um, and, and so I think people are interested in that kind of retelling or perhaps more, um, authentic storytelling.
25:40
And, and that premise alone, I think, is enough to kind of draw people in and grip people in. But, um, that's a very long conversation to have at a bar with a stranger. Uh, but hopefully I'll be persuasive enough.
25:51
Well, listen, thank you for your time today. Thank you for sharing so much with me. Um, it's really, really lovely to hear your story and your love and your passion for, for what is a w- really, really wonderful book.
26:04
Um, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you would have liked me to have asked you? No, you were perfect, Hugh. Fabulous. Well, thank you for appearing on Creative Crush, and, uh, hopefully we speak again soon.
26:17
Thanks so much, Hugh. [outro music]
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